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Knowledge Series

The UOW Knowledge Series showcases University of Wollongong thought leaders in various locations, discussing a range of engaging topics.

What does it take to have a healthy personality?

Presented by Senior Professor Brin Grenyer

Contact alumni@uow.edu.au for transcript.

Artificial Intelligence in health

Stacey Carter in conversation with Sarah Vickery

[00:00:04] We're here with Professor Stacy Carter, who is director at the Australian Centre for Health Engagement, Evidence and Values, also known as a Chave, part of the Faculty of Arts, Humanities and Social Sciences. She's also one of several people working in New South Wales on the allocation of resources, especially ventilator's in ICU beds during the covid-19 pandemic. The research undertaken at Achieve addresses contentious, controversial or challenging issues in public health and health services, some of which we are going to hear about in our conversation today.

[00:00:38] I understand you mentioned earlier one of your research areas is artificial intelligence in how it's used in the health system. What are some examples of these?

[00:00:46] So there's been a big explosion in the development of artificial intelligence in the last decade or two. And in the last decade in health, health has been an area of increasing development. So there's lots of areas where it's being used. But examples include Chappells in health. So there's quite a lot of checkbox for things like counselling or coaching and also for trials. So there's a famous example in the UK where if you have symptoms and you're at home, you can contact the chat bot via the Internet and you can talk to the chatbot and the chat bot will tell you whether you should go to the emergency room or go to a GP or will direct you to health information online. So it's a triage system. A second area is being used. A lot is around the management of healthcare systems. And that sounds really boring, but actually it has a huge impact on the care that people receive. So increasingly, there's algorithms to do things like decide how many episodes of rehabilitation someone should get after they have an accident or decide how many days someone should have in hospital and when they should be discharged and perhaps how to discharge them sooner. So those sorts of decision making algorithms or decision support algorithms really affect the way that people receive care. And then finally, in an area that we're very interested in is for screening and diagnosis. So I'm less so in Australia, but increasingly around the world, there are systems that are ready for use in screening and diagnosis, and they're just starting to trickle into health care systems here. And so we think this is the time for us to engage and talk to people about what they value around the use of these systems and to try to influence the way that artificial intelligence trickles into health care in Australia.

[00:02:37] Do you think this technology is providing us with better outcomes so far from what we've seen than what's previously been offered by humans?

[00:02:44] But that is the sixty four million dollar question, actually. So with any new technology, the question is always is this actually making things better for patients or better for members of the public? And it's surprising how often the producers of new shiny technology get away with not really answering that question. So I in health is a massive market. It's grown exponentially. So from, I think, 2014 until next year. The estimate is that the market globally is going to go from about 600 million to about six point six billion. So a massive expansion.

[00:03:20] So whenever there's a big growing commercial market like that. There's immediately a lot of people that have invested a lot of money, they have a lot of skin in the game, and so they have a lot of interest in telling a story about this technology that says that it's going to transform the world, that's going to solve problems that we've always wanted to solve, that it's it's the thing that everyone else should invest in, and particularly that everyone should purchase. So there's a lot of claims being made at the moment that I is going to greatly improve outcomes for patients. Whether that will actually occur is the big question. And it's a question that I think we really have to keep asking and demand answers to.

[00:04:04] Absolutely. And just touching on an earlier point, you may just around, you know, humans being replaced by, you know, A.I. Is it really something that you think in the fields of counselling and coaching that you mentioned earlier? Is that is that something that is is possible? A robot can predict a response or know the right response to give someone. Would you say in your in your opinion?

[00:04:26] It's a really interesting question. So and I think we still need more evidence about the effectiveness of counselling chat bots. There's some really interesting anecdotal stories about coaching chat boards. So the way that I works now has the potential to be quite responsive to you as a person. So there's now a coaching chat bots that can fashion themselves after your communication style so that your chatbot slowly becomes more and more like you. So if you make rude jokes, it makes more jokes. If you're very formal and polite, it will be very formal and polite. And some large health maintenance organisations, insurers, health insurers in the US are starting to buy into the provision of these chat bots to the people that are insured with them as a way of getting them to engage in health behaviours in the way that they would like them to. And generally speaking, I'm told anecdotally people love them because they become something like the kind of twins best friend. So there's certainly elements of the emotional connexion that people can have with AI that suggests that people might be able to experience them as supportive in the way that they might experience a human counsellor. But I think the jury's still out on the degree to which counselling could ever be outsourced entirely to an artificial intelligence.

[00:05:49] Yes, I never mentioned a time would come that that would happen. But certainly, you know, let's wait and see what happens. So what are some of the scenarios where ethical boundaries can be challenged?

[00:06:00] So there's lots of challenging ethical issues in relation to artificial intelligence and perhaps the one that people are most often worried about at the moment is the question of justice and bias and prejudice and discrimination, that kind of cluster of problems. So the thing about contemporary artificial intelligence is that it's built on data.

[00:06:24] It's built on lots and lots of data that is gathered from the world as it exists right now, the social world as it exists now. So if that social world is already prejudiced, systematically discriminatory in various ways, then that will be reflected in the data that gets fed into the artificial intelligence that makes the AI the way that it is. And in fact, over time, that is likely to amplify that prejudice to make it worse. So that can't be fixed without really deliberate, intentional action. The other potential problem with AI is it that can amplify discrimination prejudices if it's only built by one kind of person, by very heterogeneous, very homogeneous sorry developers. And if that happens, it's likely to reflect their perspective on the world. So other ethical issues that get raised a lot are around data again. So data and privacy and confidentiality. So there's been some spectacular examples of governments selling huge quantities or even giving sometimes huge quantities of patient data from public health systems to developers in exchange for what some people say is not much. And there's real questions around Will, when artificial intelligence is developed from those data, will that I actually benefit the people that supplied the data? Should the people that supplied the data have had some say in the sharing of that data with those developers? So that issue is really important. Another issue that's raised a lot is the trustworthiness of artificial intelligence and whether people will continue to trust health systems in the same way if they know that I has a significant role in them. And we don't really yet know the answer to that question, but there's a lot of people working on what would it mean to have a trustworthy AI and how can we ensure that health care remains trustworthy if I becomes a big part of it.

[00:08:23] And so how does the research that you're. Doing it achieved connecting to those scenarios that you've just outlined.

[00:08:29] So we've been really fortunate in the last 12 months or so, we've received a number of grants to do work, particularly on AI, for screening and diagnosis, and within that, especially for breast screening and for cardiovascular disease. So one of the things that's happened in AI ethics is lots of people have made lots of lists of lots of principles and they're very abstract and broad. But not many people are engaging in a lot of detail with actual application, actual use cases of AI. So what we're going to be doing in those grants is not just engaging with these quite specific use cases. So using AI for breast screening and for diagnosing cardiovascular disease, heart disease and other cardiac disease, but we'll also be engaging with all of the stakeholders around that. So with developers and investors and with regulators and with clinicians and with the people who would actually be the patients in the health systems and also with citizens, with members of the public using lots of different methods to understand what matters to all of those stakeholders, how they imagine the future of AI for screening and diagnosis, and how they want that future to be, how it should be. And that will give us really fine grained consideration and analysis of what I should look like in those applications, which is something that's not being done very much around the world. That kind of really detailed, case based analysis will give us a knowledge that we can use to guide the development of those technologies in future.

[00:10:00] That's fantastic. And it's good to get rounded insights from all stakeholders associated with AI itself. And so what would you say some of the risks are that are associated with relying on AI in managing our health?

[00:10:14] So there's lots of potential risks. There's not a lot of AI being used in Australian health care at the moment. I need to emphasise that. So in breast screening in Australia, for example, there's a lot of interest and there's a lot of algorithm development, but as yet is not being actively used in health care in Australia, in the breast screening, the public breast screening programme. But there are certainly some risks that I think need to be taken seriously before we implement those systems. So, for example, some of those include a problem that's referred to as explain ability or interprete ability. So the way that contemporary algorithms work, it's not always possible to know exactly how they're doing, what they're doing, because basically they're given a call. So find breast cancer on these images. They're given lots of data and they're not programmed to carry out a series of steps to achieve that goal. They're programmed to learn from the data. So they they see patterns in the data. They work out ways of using the data to identify the breast cancer on the screen. But you don't necessarily know exactly how they've done it. So one of the things that people worry about, one of the risks that people worry about is that will end up with systems in health care that are doing really important tasks and where we're not quite sure how. So a number of people are working on technical solutions for that. And then that goes to a related set of problems, risks around what is a doctor exactly. If artificial intelligence is doing a lot of the things that doctors used to do, and what effect will it have on clinicians if eyes become really important in health care? So, for example, there's a problem that people are concerned about called automation bias, which is that generally speaking, if humans are told that a computer has produced the right answer and they think it's not the right answer, they tend to think that they're wrong and that computers correct. So obviously, in a health care setting, that's something that if the computer's making a bad decision, if the algorithms make that decision, you want the human to be able to push back. And a related problem is deskilling. So if you outsource a component of health care to an automated system, we know that humans forget how to do that thing pretty quickly. So if in future the automated system was to fail, then you've got a problem because you have a lot of humans who don't actually know how to do that thing anymore. So that might not matter if the system's really reliable and if it does it better than the people, then no problem. But but if actually it's a critical process and if the algorithms not completely dependable, then deskilling is potentially a real risk.

[00:13:04] So from what you've said, AI is to me only as good as the data that is put into the system. Do you think that, you know, where does the liability sit, I guess when things go wrong with AI and health?

[00:13:17] Yeah, that's another really important question, actually. So in our National Health and Medical Research Council funded Grant, we have a whole bunch of work on. Regulation and law that's being led by my colleague Bernadette Richards from the University of Adelaide, and the responsibility intuitively feels like it should probably be shared in the clinician, probably has some responsibility. The developer probably has some responsibility that he's selling the algorithm and maybe the health system that's buying the algorithm should also do some due diligence. So there's some shared responsibility there.

[00:13:51] There's a little bit of precedence around algorithms that have received regulatory approval, having built into them explicit location of the legal liability to some extent with the developer, because it's an autonomous system that's doing diagnosis of a certain disease without any human intervention. So there's some precedent for the responsibility lying with the developer. But it's definitely an active area that that people are trying to find good answers in at the moment, which is changing from moment.

[00:14:25] Stacey, as I mentioned in my introduction, you've been working on the ethics surrounding the allocation of ventilator's in New South Wales during the covid-19 pandemic. What are some of the guidelines being considered around this?

[00:14:38] So when the pandemic first started, everyone who works in health ethics, I think for a little while, for maybe two months or many people were working really hard on this difficult problem of allocating ventilators. And as you can imagine, being a clinician on the front line and having to decide who gets a ventilator and who doesn't is it's an unbearable choice, really. So that felt very compelling. And people were very motivated to try to find good answers to support those clinicians that were really in such a difficult situation.

[00:15:18] So many people that work in health effects all around the world generated guidelines. And there's scores of guidelines now for allocation during covid. And they they have a reasonable amount of overlap.

[00:15:30] So generally, they agree that it shouldn't actually be left to the clinician who's responsible for caring for patients to have to make those lump, all those those life and death decisions, that there should be a committee that's properly constituted, a small group that has clinical expertise, but it sits outside of the care team and that there should be really clear rules for how they make decisions and that they should be applied in a very consistent way.

[00:15:58] And that's to make sure that people who are in a similar situation get similar treatment, that it's fair and consistent and transparent. But interestingly, just in the last little while, the evidence is kind of shifting. So when we were all doing all that work all around the world, we were all thinking, really? And I'm relying here on work from my colleague Angela Valentine at the University of Otago. So we were really thinking of ventilators as the silver bullet, as the thing that would stand between people and death. And so how you allocate that resource seemed like the most important question. But increasingly, as the evidence emerges about what happens when people very sadly end up so sick that they're on a ventilator, is that the outcomes really aren't very good in the context of covid. So between 50 and 85 per cent of people who need to be ventilated don't survive that experience. And also we know that being ventilated has harms in itself. It's very traumatic. It does all kinds of physical damage to people. Often people will have long term physical and mental effects afterwards. So increasingly the conversation is shifting actually. And people are starting to say, you know what, maybe rather than looking at ventilators as a silver bullet, particularly now in New South Wales, where it seems like we probably won't hopefully if we continue to manage community transmission, well, we might not have a terrible search like they have in some countries. And we also have much more capacity. We have a lot more ventilators now than we used to. Maybe actually what's really important is making sure that all Australian communities have really good information and support to prevent themselves getting covid-19 in the first place, and that there's really good support for everyone who ends up very, very ill with covid to make sure that they have excellent access to palliative care, really good quality communication, and that they're involved or their families involved in and end of life decisions in a meaningful way. So, in fact, perhaps prevention and really good end of life care are more important than how we allocate ventilators. But back in March and April, everyone felt like we really had to try to work out this terrible ventilator problem.

[00:18:21] So when you were back in March and April and it wasn't. No. About the long term outcomes of the use of ventilators, what kind of ethics did you need to take into consideration when I guess weighing up who does get the ventilator versus who doesn't?

[00:18:36] So the question that most ethicists were talking through was about how we balance two things that are really important and often difficult. Ethical problems are problems of having to trade off things that we don't actually really want to have to trade off. But we do. And the trade off was really around saving the most number of lives, saving the most people, versus trying to be responsive to the fact that there's lots of inequity in society. So the people that are most likely to benefit from a ventilator will be the people that are the least sick, you know, the people that the people that have the fewest underlying other conditions, for example, and that they're probably more likely to be people that are more privileged in society. So if you allocate ventilators to the people most likely to benefit, it's probably statistically likely that you're going to be you're going to be helping more people who are already advantaged. And that was a terrible tension that's very difficult to solve. But in the end, most people that were thinking about the problem came down on the side of really when you're in this crisis situation and you have very limited resources and you think that that resource is the thing that's going to save people, you really do have to allocate it in a way that saves the most lives. And so most of the guidelines that were developed were about trying to produce a standardised system for doing that. So there's lots of medical systems for using lots of criteria for grading essentially how sick people are and how likely they are to benefit from an extreme treatment like ventilation. So trying to put processes in place to make sure that because clinicians are humans, just like all of us, and they have cognitive biases like all of us, so that people weren't automatically disregarding people because they were older or automatically disregarding people because they had a disability or because they came from a minority population. So to make sure that there was supports in place to help clinicians make decisions just on clinical criteria that were about survival and benefit, rather than on what might be some background prejudices that people might have without realising it.

[00:20:51] So when we have unprecedented events such as covid-19, how do you manage to implement such important overarching ethical factors so quickly?

[00:21:00] Yeah, partly through doing a lot of work really fast.

[00:21:05] So a lot of people all around the world where we're really spending a lot of time thinking about this problem and certainly myself and I know many other people set everything else aside for a good few weeks while all this work was going on. But also there's always the thing that happens in academic life, which is kind of standing on the shoulders of giants. You know, there's always a background to this. So there's been pandemics before. There's been terrible emergency situations before. There's been crises where there's not enough resources to go around before. And it's also the nature of society in the nature of health systems that often there's not as many resources as we would like for whatever reason and decisions have to be made about how to allocate those resources. So all of the work that was done about covid was built on a platform of all of the work that had been done before in any other pandemic or crisis or emergency situation, and that that helped the work to be done as fast as it needed to be done.

[00:22:04] Absolutely. Well, Stacy, thank you so much for joining us today. I'm sure everybody's found Stacey's insights extremely interesting. And I know that I in particular is such a developing area. So we look forward to hearing more about your research and into ethics around this area as time goes on. Thank you once again.

Creating cooperative kids & connected families

Mark Donovan in conversation with Leanne Newsham

00:05
we're here today with mark donovan who's
00:07
the manager of northfield psychology
00:09
clinic at the university of wollongong
00:11
northfield's clinic has been providing
00:13
high quality mental health services to
00:16
the community
00:17
and supervise professional development
00:19
for the university's psychology students
00:21
for 40 years
00:22
first off i wanted to ask you what are
00:24
some of the most common reasons kids
00:26
become
00:27
uncooperative um if you think about
00:30
children cooperation the word
00:32
cooperation is about a relationship
00:34
between two people and here it's a
00:36
parent and a child
00:37
and so we can kind of think about why
00:39
would a child become uncooperative
00:42
and and we're thinking well there's
00:44
there's three main things
00:45
um the first would be biology we just
00:48
know that some children
00:49
uh by nature's uh and they're a little
00:51
more short fused
00:53
they find it harder to kind of run with
00:55
the pack they want to do their thing
00:56
in their time and so if you say to them
00:59
you know go and
01:00
put your shoes somewhere else they've
01:02
got to stop doing what they're doing
01:03
they find that harder so there's going
01:05
to be
01:05
sort of biological factors but it's not
01:07
just the child because it's also the
01:09
parent that's going to influence
01:10
the cooperation as well so apart from
01:13
biology we've also got then
01:15
the environment what's happening in the
01:16
environment and so we know that
01:19
in some households there's a lot of
01:21
stress and so
01:22
within that more stressful household
01:25
maybe instructions are given less
01:27
clearly
01:29
maybe children are already sort of quite
01:32
hot
01:34
before they're asked if they can then
01:35
put their shoes somewhere else
01:37
we also know that there's a whole bunch
01:39
of sort of background factors that cause
01:41
a lot of stress for families
01:42
like um uh you know social
01:46
uh disadvantage um so we know the
01:49
families where there isn't enough money
01:51
uh where maybe um there's a whole bunch
01:54
of other
01:54
difficulties that they're bringing into
01:56
their experience of being a parent from
01:58
their own
01:58
upbringings that those families
02:00
unsurprisingly um there's going to be
02:02
more stress
02:03
and then that stress is going to convert
02:05
into a lack of cooperation at times
02:07
so there's two main ones but the third
02:09
one then is really about
02:11
the patterns of behavior between the
02:13
parent and the child
02:14
and so over time parents and children
02:17
learn how to
02:18
be with each other and we'll see that
02:20
some children will then sort of learn
02:22
the behavior of being uncooperative
02:25
and that's learnt over sort of you know
02:26
months and years
02:28
but then they can become a rut and
02:30
likewise parents
02:31
learn a behavior of inadvertently
02:34
fueling some of those uncooperative
02:35
behaviors
02:36
we used a kind of a little metaphor to
02:38
kind of put it together
02:39
um here at the university sort of think
02:42
a little bit about fire
02:43
um which of course you know we've
02:45
thought about a lot about that in the
02:46
last year
02:47
um you're thinking fuel wise which is
02:50
the biology
02:51
it's like you know we just know that
02:52
some children are a bit more combustible
02:55
some parents will get more combustible
02:57
too and there's going to be more likely
02:59
of having those sorts of difficult
03:00
behaviors uncooperative behaviors which
03:02
become like the fires
03:04
they can sort of rage through families
03:06
and make it pretty difficult
03:07
we also know that there's some families
03:09
where there's a lot more heat around
03:11
they've got those sort of social
03:12
disadvantage factors maybe somebody's
03:14
lost a job
03:15
maybe someone's got a lot of stress at
03:17
work maybe someone's got a lot of stress
03:19
at school
03:20
there could be academic difficulties
03:22
there could be a whole bunch of
03:22
different heat factors it could also be
03:24
just
03:25
tired and hungry you know or don't want
03:27
to do it
03:28
so those sort of heat factors and then
03:30
oxygen is a third part of a fire and so
03:33
that's really the flow of attention
03:35
which becomes those patterns of behavior
03:37
that get learned within families
03:39
and we know from you know sort of four
03:41
decades of research
03:42
that the coercive
03:45
cycles of these things that happen
03:48
between parents and kids and you you'll
03:49
hear parents talk about this
03:51
you know power struggle and you know
03:54
they'll
03:55
they'll sort of give out some sort of
03:56
instruction they want their child to do
03:57
something
03:58
the child doesn't want to do it so they
04:00
might just ignore the parent
04:02
and then it ramps up and the parent's a
04:04
little cross now
04:05
and so the instruction the second one is
04:07
a little more firm
04:09
a little angry and a child then might
04:11
react to that
04:12
and so and they keep upping the ante and
04:15
so you get these sort of coercive cycles
04:16
which are really part of uncooperative
04:18
behavior
04:20
so there's a long answer to your
04:21
question but if we're kind of thinking
04:23
broadly then we've got
04:24
things to do with the child and the
04:26
parent we've got environmental sort of
04:28
heat factors
04:29
and then we've got the flow of attention
04:30
which becomes like something that can
04:32
sort of fan the flames of uncooperative
04:34
behavior
04:34
so you did touch on this but rock roll
04:36
can parents play
04:38
in helping their kids to stay calm and
04:40
be more cooperative at school and at
04:42
home actually
04:43
first of all they've just got to really
04:44
strengthen up that relationship with
04:45
their child
04:47
and it's hard like we're so busy with so
04:49
many different things
04:50
uh families these days um you know i
04:53
guess
04:53
recently and there's been a reduction in
04:55
the sorts of
04:56
activities through covert that families
04:58
are doing but often we're running around
04:59
doing 10
05:00
000 things and it's hard just to sit
05:02
down and have time together
05:04
but but that is the center of how to
05:07
make things better
05:08
is to just sit down and enjoy some time
05:11
together
05:12
and for parents to just pause and
05:15
notice their child and notice
05:18
not the annoying stuff because that's
05:21
there
05:22
but to notice the other stuff um but not
05:25
only to notice it but to let the child
05:27
know that they've seen it too
05:28
and we've got to then give attention and
05:30
let our kids know that we appreciate
05:32
when they do those nice things to each
05:34
other or
05:35
or for us they might be real helpful for
05:36
us and help us out we're just going to
05:38
say thank you very much
05:39
and try and be specific about what it is
05:40
not just like thanks but
05:43
look thanks for putting your lunchbox
05:44
away straight away when you came home
05:46
today it just makes it so much easier
05:48
for me
05:49
i really appreciate it and maybe a
05:50
little touch on the shoulder
05:52
which again is is is again it's oxygen
05:54
it's a flow of attention but it's now in
05:56
a positive way that's going to help the
05:58
child feel good about themselves
06:00
and it's also going to strengthen up
06:02
that relationship the other really
06:04
important part would be
06:05
um if you want your child to do
06:07
something
06:09
give a really clear instruction like uh
06:12
we we often give sort of what i describe
06:14
as like fly-by instructions we're sort
06:16
of
06:16
two rooms away and it's like you're
06:18
nearly ready yet
06:20
which which meant you know um you know
06:23
put your shoes on make sure your school
06:25
bag's ready and packed
06:26
uh you've got your lunch in there as
06:28
well um don't forget to feed the cat
06:31
um and then be at the door in three
06:32
minutes but we don't see any of that
06:34
and then we're annoyed because they
06:35
haven't done it and then and then it
06:37
starts again with this way
06:38
so we talk about sort of going for gold
06:41
with that first instruction
06:42
because if you can just give that first
06:44
instruction real clear
06:46
then you get cooperation and again
06:49
thinking of those three key things
06:51
like part of it is this pattern of
06:52
behavior between parent and child
06:54
so rather than kicking off some sort of
06:56
coercive cycle
06:59
if you give a nice clear instruction
07:01
where you go up to a child and you say
07:04
you know mark i need you to get ready
07:06
for school mate so what that involves is
07:09
can you do that for me great thanks
07:13
if we can do that then i'm building a
07:15
pattern of cooperation because now
07:17
little mark is doing what i've asked and
07:20
so he's going to be praised for that and
07:21
he's going to feel good about himself in
07:22
the morning he's going to go to school
07:24
feeling much calmer much happier which
07:27
means he's probably
07:28
going better with his mates during the
07:29
day too and the teacher which means he's
07:31
probably going to come home
07:33
nice and calm and then i'm going to
07:35
notice that and it's like oh you had a
07:36
good day today
07:37
and all of a sudden again our
07:38
interactions are full of these lovely
07:40
backwards and forwards compared to
07:42
you know what are you looking at me like
07:43
that for um
07:45
then that can just kick off these again
07:47
coercive cycles
07:49
do you have some practical tips and
07:51
techniques for parents trying to deal
07:53
with challenging behavior
07:54
and lacking the motivation to cooperate
07:58
there's a nice little saying that um
08:01
there's a an intervention called um
08:04
circle of security which has been sort
08:06
of involved for the last release of 20
08:07
years i guess
08:09
and they've got this nice little 25 word
08:11
saying about parenting
08:13
and so it's always be bigger stronger
08:16
wiser and kind
08:18
and so the idea is that you know the
08:19
bigger and stronger is kind of like the
08:21
limits
08:22
and kind is the love and then the wise
08:24
part is knowing the balance because at
08:26
any moment you might need to tip more
08:27
one way than the other
08:28
so always be bigger stronger was unkind
08:31
whenever possible
08:32
follow your child's need so what do they
08:35
need right now
08:36
and follow that and then whenever
 

 

Remote learning ready: UOW's response to COVID-19

Professor Theo Farrell in conversation with Monique Harper-Richardson

00:05
We're here today with professor. Theo 'Farrell deputy vice chancellor for education at the University of Wollongong,
00:10
Professor Farrell has a wide portfolio, but mostly responsible for digital and online learning.
00:17
So, to our first question, what a journey for you from head of war studies at King's College, London through to Dean of Arts and social sciences at the University of London then here to Wollongong in law humanities and the Arts
00:30
and now deputy vice chancellor. I wondered when I was preparing for this discussion with your search area, which is in war studies, actually prepared for the task that you
00:40
had to take on most recently university in how we took our teaching remotely During covid.
00:46
Oh, correct. Question one. So I indeed, I was in London for over a decade as a professor of war studies at King's College London,
00:55
and in my research is on strategy and the conduct of contemporary war. So I guess in three ways, it you know, it is kind of relevant, has kind of helped in three ways.
01:06
I mean, the first is that the military are famously very good at planning. I mean, they do a lot of planning and we've been doing a lot of planning in this process.
01:14
I mean, we've been sort of neck deep in plans basically to get us through get us through this crisis and take taking the whole university into remote delivery.
01:23
And the interesting thing about it is that this sort of second point is the military are also very good at crises. You throw them into a crises and they're in their element.
01:32
And one of the reasons why they're in their element is because they do a lot of planning. So military plans almost invariably never survive.
01:38
Contact with the enemy is the expression they've plans or never what how things actually turn out. But it's because you do a lot of planning that you actually can figure
01:46
a way through a crisis. And we found ourselves thrust into this crisis very quickly, like many universities. And I'm very proud to say that, you know, I just have a fantastic
01:54
team around me and colleagues across the university just on a really terrific job, actually, in navigation our way through this crisis. I guess the last point I don't make is
02:04
the military of this idea of what in their military plans of what they called main effort. And that is you identify the one thing that you really want to focus your attention on,
02:13
because by focusing attention on this, you will achieve what you're trying to achieve any more. That would be victory quite early on.
02:21
The vice chancellor came out with a very strong statement, which was really a statement around main effort, where he said to the entire university community,
02:29
our focus is going to be on getting ourselves online for remote delivery and getting ready for our students so that we can give them the best possible experience.
02:39
That was that was the main effort of the entire institution. And I think that rallying call that the vice chancellor put out to everyone was very important and very powerful.
02:47
Face to face teaching for the University of Wollongong is a strength. Some might say our core strength started to move so quickly.
02:54
Planning crises call to action. But what did it really take for us to move and be so logistically quick to have that focus to move to remote delivery?
03:04
Yeah, indeed. I mean, so I think one of the things that Wollongong is very proud of is the quality of the student experience, the quality of the education we provide.
03:12
And, you know, consistently year after year, we do so well in those quality indicators, learning and teaching in the top universities in Australia.
03:21
So it's very important for us, you know, that when we went to remote delivery, we went online. But that was the best that we could possibly provide for our students.
03:30
I think there are two key things there that really, really took for us. One was staff engagement and mean we had to get staff to engage with online delivery.
03:39
And so that was a real challenge for us, which was because everybody had to do it. Every single teaching staff member had to actually get their heads around teaching
03:48
online, and they did. That was really important. So we we stopped classes for two week periods while we just trained up everyone.
03:57
And we had seventeen hundred staff participate in that two week period in training, which is incredible. And we we created your day online teaching course,
04:08
learning and teaching course for staff on all aspects of learning and teaching. And that's been running now since since late March. And we've had one hundred and fifty thousand visits to that site by staff coming of that state
04:20
, the training modules and use the resources everybody has engaged. And that's been a really amazing effort. And the other thing is, is the student experience.
04:29
I mean, we've been really, really focused on the student experience. And midway through the last semester, we did a survey of our students find out how we're doing
04:37
basically. And the results just, I thought were incredible. You know, all aspects of our learning and teaching, the quality of our pre-recorded lectures, the quality of the Real-Time
04:47
classes, quality of the online materials that we have on our Web sites, the staff, student directions, the student satisfaction ratings were between seventy seven and
04:56
eighty five percent, average of 82 percent satisfaction. That's incredible. What we actually think that tells us is that. What students were were telling us was I think many
05:06
of them had a really good learning experience, but I think for the most part what they were saying is we can see that you're really tried hard and they really appreciated that.
05:14
So I think that spirit of the staff really leaning in engaging and students likewise, you know, leaning in and engaging and realising that we're doing all that we can.
05:23
I mean, that's been incredible. I mean, it really has been a member of staff. The head of one school said this is the UOW spirit in action.
05:30
And I think it really was
05:31
I think you write about the spirit. It comes at many ways in terms of the university. There are many courses that have a practical component. So if we think for some students, that practical component actually takes place off campus, which includes
05:45
nursing education. And then for some of our students, it's actually labs and other types of practical. So if we think about students in science and engineering,
05:53
how did you focus around how those practicals would continue or be managed during this period?
05:59
Yeah, of course. I mean, that's that's obviously very challenging area, because some aspects learning, teaching actually aren't that difficult to put online.
06:06
But some areas like laboratory work or some of the practical works or workshops where invariably, you know, the physicality of what you're doing is actually this is core
06:15
to it that's more challenging to do online. And, you know, you gave examples of nursing education, great examples because both of those schools have had really
06:23
innovative leadership. You've got Tracy Maroney Professor, Tracy Maroney, who's who's head of nursing, and Professor Sue Bennett, head of education of both World-Class educators who do a lot of stuff that's online actually so happens.
06:37
And in both those schools, they've actually been doing a lot of stuff online. And in nursing, for instance, they've they they've done some quite experimental stuff through
06:46
online delivery of classes that are actually quite practical. And also, I have to say, in science and engineering, actually, they they move to a lot of a lot of work online.
06:55
So, you know, member staff went into the laboratory and did laboratory work, which they were streaming out to students. So in the spring semester, we are we are on track
07:08
to return about 15 percent of our subjects back on campus. And we're focussing on those priority subjects where really students will benefit by being on campus, which is labs
07:17
And the practise very positive because many of our alumni, we have very large numbers of graduates in nursing and education.
07:23
One of the scientists and engineers and they will be thinking about the current students who are our future alumni and how they what their experience be different
07:31
will have the practical skills. So I really appreciate you taking the time to elaborate on that particular challenge.
07:37
Do you think students are more likely to want to continue with the remote delivery and to full face to face or perhaps a blend moving forward?
07:47
What would you project going forward that students might be looking for for their education?
07:52
Yeah, I mean, obviously it will vary from student to student. Every student just has their own circumstances. I mean, broadly speaking, post graduate students tend to be
08:01
more favourably disposed towards online learning. And many of them have, you know, a mix of work applications and family obligations. And so the flexibility that online
08:11
offers really, really generally postgraduate students find that very advantageous. Whereas generally undergraduate students for the most part tend to be more disposed towards on campus teaching.
08:25
And that's because, of course, they not always, but they tend to be straight from school. They tend to be younger people.
08:31
And the university experience offers not just obviously the education, but the very rich social experience, the opportunity to build networks that last you your whole life,
08:40
the opportunity to build social capital and the skills to build social capital. And so that college campus experience is very important for that reason. But broadly speaking,
08:50
I mean, online does offer flexibility. And so I think there's considerable scope for us to do more on campus, to mix online with our own campus provisions. This kind of hybrid
09:02
you're talking about and what I would describe as blended learning and so know in many subjects, say, for instance, you might replace one as one part, the subject say, for instance, some lectures with online material,
09:13
and that offers flexibility, which even undergraduates appreciate, because undergraduates, once they do want the campus experience for the most part, many of them, they also value flexibility
09:24
because many of them work actually or many have. Many do have care applications.
09:28
And so I think, broadly speaking, we will see a lot more online going forward. But at the same time, we are all eagerly awaiting the return to vibrant campus life.
09:40
Theo what role do you see alumni playing in the future of education?
09:46
Very important role, actually. So we've been talking about online or remote delivery. That's where all the attention is these days. Just for now. But at the same time,
09:55
if you look at the government's agenda and they're very focused on jobs creation jobs and rightly so. I mean, just this week, you know, the treasurer was giving his effectually
10:04
many. Budget. And and the unemployment projections at the end the year are looking very serious. So anywhere between about nine point five to over 10 percent
10:13
unemployed. So the government is very focused on on creating job opportunities. And it's going to be challenging, actually. Add to Productivity Commission today, put out a report. It's really interesting. They looked at the what happened with employment after
10:29
the 2007 2008 global financial crisis. And what you had for the decade after that. Was that for young people, it became much more difficult for them to get the kind of jobs that they would expect to get.
10:42
So unemployment itself didn't really wasn't too bad beyond 2010, but actually job opportunities for young people as the kind of jobs they should have got given their their education status. That became a real issue.
10:55
And this is what what's referred to as scarring in the economy, long term effects of downturns. And we're facing the possibility of scarring. So in addition to online, the other area that are really focused on this is how do we better prepare students for
11:10
the future of work, given that we know what's going to change Industry 4.0? And how do we develop a portfolio of lifelong learning offerings? And there are alumni, a very important role to play because I think we have to reach out to our whole community
11:22
and involve them in the effort in co designing future lifelong learning offerings and also bringing bringing alumni in to support mentoring opportunities with our students and and potentially also into the classroom.
11:35
And I know and I know from my experience back in London, where we did quite a lot of this, is it happens that very often people really appreciate the opportunity to come back into university where they graduated and give something back
11:46
and have an opportunity maybe to mentor or to teach us small to give up a small amount of time to do that. And both students and alumni really benefit from that interaction. So I'd like to see what we can do in that space.
11:59
Exciting times ahead. And what comparisons do you see between learning institutions across the globe? What's interesting about covid 19 is that all institutions faced
12:10
the same challenges at the same time. What are your observations? Being able to see it? Not really. Just as one countries issue, but a global issue?
12:18
Yeah, it is very interesting. Covid 19 has been the great leveller. I mean, across all of humanity has been impacted and it's been a global shared global experience, albeit with with with local and regional differences.
12:32
And so in the education space, basically universities across the world have had to have had to close down their campuses. And they've done it at different rates. And that's the big, big difference, actually, is the rate at which they've closed down
12:44
campuses and broadly speaking, in the West. Universities have been able to close campuses really quite quickly, actually, because we had the resources to go online very quickly and our students had the resources to access online learning.
12:57
But in other countries in the global south, the race has been more mixed. And that's partly down to resources being able to deliver online regulation.
13:06
The regulatory bodies. So in some some countries online learning that the registry bodies have been less favourable towards online and having to change their view.
13:14
And also, of course, what's been quite important is that the country's experience of off the health crisis has been different. So the you know, broadly speaking,
13:24
the northern countries got hit earlier. I've coming out, coming out of China, but then spreading into Europe and North America. Those countries got hit faster and earlier
13:36
than that than the global south, which got him in his bed later. So that would have obviously impacted him when when campuses closed.
13:42
But broadly speaking, ever and ever, every university roughly ends up in the same place, which is going online,
13:47
certainly a once in a century experience across the globe. So what have you been doing personally to manage your stress during this time,
13:57
particularly around covid, but also turning a very large tanker from face to face to online teaching in a short period of time?
14:04
Yeah, I mean, of course. I mean, I have to say this. The what we've managed to achieve by moving in moved ninety nine point nine percent of our subjects online.
14:13
So that was incredible. It was just a huge a huge collective effort and also in terms of all of our student support. So that's the support provided by our Pro-Vice chancellor
14:24
students. Our provide jobs to students are a students accommodation services division, are information management technology services.
14:31
It's just been a massive collective effort. As one of my senior colleagues says, this is very much a team sport. And so it's part of that shared endeavour.
14:39
So that really helps with stress because you're all in it together and you're all pulling in the same direction. And so I think sharing those experiences with your colleagues has been has been very important.
14:49
And the other is I've taken up Scotland. So it's a game of Scrabble every evening. Listening to classical music is a great way to end the day and invariably losing to my wife. But that's OK.
15:00
It's a great de-stressor and it's very wise to keep raising. And then in closing, our final question, what leadership? Listen to me personally, take it away from this experience that you'll take forward.
15:11
Yeah, that's a nice question to end on. So first is, I think, around setting a clear direction. And that goes back to my point about structure diversity
15:20
, that you want to empower your colleagues and and the whole institution. You want to harness the energy, but you have to set a clear direction and where you're going. And I think that's what the vice chancellor did with his rallying call to say this is now
15:32
the single focus of the institution. So I think that's that's a really important lesson. I think also another lesson I would take is about believing in people.
15:41
I mean, it we we manage to make a success of this because our staff on our students all pull together. And I mean, for me, I know you, UOW has a terrific spirit.
15:52
Obviously, I've known that since since I've arrived. But I just didn't appreciate the depth of of that. And so it's it's seen that in action. And it's not just UOW of course,
16:02
many of the universities, we've seen similar things. And speaking to our fellow deputy vice chancellors and we will all get together and think of you swap war stories.
16:10
But I mean, others have likewise and other universities have said it's you know, see, it's been very challenging, the whole covid 19 crisis.
16:18
But it's been incredible time to be to be working in university has been a great privilege to see how the whole university communities and all the universities around Australia
16:27
have pulled together to get to get ourselves through this crisis and support our students. So for me, that's that's an important lesson.
16:34
What a delightful area to finish with. Professor Theo Farrell gave up his time so generously today to have a conversation with us.
16:45
We look forward to an update in the future once students come back to campus.
 

 

How people respond to law and governance in a crisis

Associate Professor Cassandra Sharp in conversation with Sarah Vickery

00:05
well we're here today with dr cassandra sharp
00:08
who is an associate professor at uow's school of law
00:12
her research relates to understanding the motivations expectations and
00:16
values of individuals as they respond to law in key crisis moments
00:20
a very pertinent topic as we continue to navigate our way through the COVID-19
00:24
pandemic which has thrown the world into a state
00:28
of heightened panic disease and anxiety welcome cassandra
00:32
well i think it's safe to say that 2020 has been a year like no other
00:36
and we've all had to adapt to changing circumstances
00:40
and new laws that have quickly introduced to be strictly enforced
00:44
so generally speaking how do you think the public have responded to the
00:48
restrictions that were introduced during the crisis well i think apart
00:52
from the hiccups that we had at the beginning with the toilet paper
00:54
stockpiling and the grocery hoarding i think australians have adapted
00:59
reasonably well as much as we can i think that given the uncertainty
01:05
around the the virus spreading quickly around the globe
01:08
and also around community transmission in those early days
01:12
we've did we've done the best we can to adapt as quickly as possible
01:16
i think wherever there is a kind of a trust
01:20
in our governments and our law makers that
01:23
their actions are appropriate and working we feel like we can
01:27
relinquish some of our freedoms in those moments so wherever we have that trust
01:32
and confidence we feel that we can give up a few of our
01:35
freedoms but i think that when we start to doubt
01:40
the imposition of restrictions then we might be a bit more reluctant
01:45
if we if we don't see that this is a huge
01:48
public health risk to ourselves and our loved ones
01:52
then we might be a bit more reluctant to have our rights diminished
01:56
absolutely certainly been a big time of adapting to change and i guess we're all
02:01
just doing the best we can in these times that's right
02:03
so what do you think about the way breaches of restrictions such as say
02:07
sitting down in a public place or lying on a beach which i know in the early
02:11
days was commonly moved on by police how do you
02:14
think that was handled by law enforcement agencies
02:17
i think at the start there were concerns that there was a potential for police
02:22
to to be heavy-handed in the issuing of fines
02:25
particularly in those areas which might seem to us
02:28
quite frivolous in the early days but i think that's
02:32
always going to be the downside of discretionary power when there are new
02:36
directions or regulations that are put into place that
02:39
impact upon our everyday activities we want to have this awareness and
02:45
assurance that there's going to be consistency
02:48
in application um of those those restrictions and
02:52
and a guidance on how we're to behave i can give you a
02:55
a personal example of that actually we were as a family during lockdown out on
03:00
a bike ride and we had gone for about an hour and
03:04
then we stopped in a park to have our snacks and we were quite a
03:08
distance away from anyone else just enjoying that time together as a family
03:12
when a police officer doing the rounds came over and encouraged us to move on
03:17
with our snacks and sort of said you know you probably should be moving on
03:21
and it was he was quite lovely it was all
03:23
fine there wasn't any angst and he certainly didn't mention fines or
03:27
penalties but we had a conversation about how
03:30
it's a really awkward sort of moment for the police officers in that regard and i
03:34
think the swiftness of the way that these
03:38
restrictions came into being they had a really
03:41
difficult job and so i think that in the end
03:46
we have to recognize that they had to adjust uh
03:50
quickly to those changes and i think now they've kind of moved on there's a shift
03:53
in focus potentially to those blatant disregard for the rules
03:58
where um you know people are having large house parties or 200 people and so
04:02
on so i think there's been a bit of a shift in focus
04:04
what is the usual process for introducing
04:07
temporary changes to law so in australia to change any law or to introduce a law
04:12
it needs to go through a parliamentary process so this is whether it's state or
04:16
federal that process is usually involves a lot
04:20
of discussion and debate and consultation and a lot of time
04:26
spent discussing the the impact of the new changes or the new law
04:31
and uh and how it will actually come into being and so
04:34
it's a time-consuming process from parliamentary
04:37
um discussion to approval to royal assent that can sometimes take
04:42
weeks months or even years in some cases with the COVID situation the
04:49
changes to laws at both the federal and state level
04:52
came into being within 24 hours to that point of being enforceable
04:56
so i think we can see how quickly things can move in a national emergency but it
05:00
usually is a time consuming process wow that certainly is fast in the scheme
05:04
of things isn't it and um is it unusual for the enhanced
05:08
police powers to be introduced so rapidly i mean
05:11
you did touch on the fact that you know it was a 24-hour process but
05:14
is this an unusual circumstance would you say yes it is
05:17
relatively unusual and that's because these
05:21
kinds of amendments to the law usually take a lot of time it's a rigorous
05:24
debate process that's what the process the parliamentary process is designed to
05:29
do it's its whole purpose and so it is relatively unusual to be
05:33
that fast the last time that rapid changes or
05:37
introduction to law has occurred with respect to police power was back in
05:42
2014 with the government's 16 point plan with respect to combating
05:49
alcohol violence so you might remember the one punch laws
05:52
that came into being which allowed police officers to
05:57
conduct drug and alcohol testing on suspected offenders
06:01
and those amendments were brought in within a week from parliamentary process
06:06
to enforceability and so at the time those laws those amendments were seen to
06:12
be a knee-jerk response to public demand but yes generally speaking um it isn't
06:19
usual for these types of um amendments to be so fast do you think
06:23
that there was adequate publicity and about the constantly changing state
06:27
of the laws during the pandemic you know i think there was criticism uh
06:31
in the early days too about you know potentially conflicting
06:34
messages and people weren't sure about what it is they can and they can't do in
06:38
their everyday lives particularly when out and about um but
06:42
you know we live in an age that's at the technology age where the
06:45
opportunities to communicate and disseminate information
06:49
is limitless almost and so i think they've done the state government and
06:54
the federal government and department authorities have done a
06:58
very concerted effort to bring
07:02
those uh changes and information to the awareness of the public
07:06
i mean if you think about it each of those departments have websites
07:10
uh that they're constantly updating there have been media releases there's
07:14
been briefings there's been press statements there's been campaigns
07:18
across all the major news networks and television and radio
07:22
advertisements and social media hashtags have been
07:26
deployed to help with that communication like um
07:29
hashtag ospol and hashtag coronavirus australia
07:33
i was going to say i think if you didn't know about what was going on in the
07:36
world right now you would have been you know virtually living under a rock so it
07:40
was certainly all consuming when it first came about
07:44
wasn't it um and then you mentioned social media
07:46
hashtags what role did social media play in helping
07:50
communicate the changing laws do you think well so as i mentioned
07:53
not only did the governments and the department the health department and all
07:56
those authorities have websites that they communicated their
08:00
changing impacts on but they also have a very strong social media presence
08:06
most of those departments have a facebook page and also
08:10
either instagram twitter or even some of them have youtube
08:14
channels it's so accessible and i think that's the key
08:18
to communicating key changes or information
08:22
in a rapidly changing environment it is so accessible i mean most people
08:27
have any of those platforms on their phones in the palm of their hand
08:33
almost daily you know all the time every day
08:36
and so we have this opportunity to disseminate information
08:40
to a wide range of people thousands and thousands of people
08:43
very quickly it is an environment where if you think about
08:49
it the social distancing requirements
08:54
and the isolation of this pandemic actually stimulated dependence on social
09:01
media for information so isolation when we really get down to
09:05
it fuels our dependence on digital technology to provide the
09:10
information that we're so desperately seeking in
09:13
those moments and i think that that individuals really rely on all of those
09:18
different platforms to get that information
09:20
because we're we're really um struggling to deal with life in those
09:26
times and that is a way that we can bring comfort to ourselves and awareness
09:29
in those moments absolutely it really makes you wonder
09:32
how it would have been without social media isn't it when you cast your mind
09:35
back what more than 20 years or two even less
09:38
15 years ago that's right you wouldn't have had
09:40
this uh mechanism to disseminate such information that's right we're living in
09:44
a wonderful age very powerful yes so how does social media commentary
09:49
actually challenge or transform understanding of the law
09:52
in times of crisis so with the proliferation of social media use with
09:56
so many people using social media and if
09:59
you think about it facebook has a 2.5 million
10:04
users instagram and twitter has uh between them 1.5 million users
10:09
with that proliferation of so many people using social media it is a key
10:13
way to not only disseminate information
10:17
but to transform ideas about how we are responding
10:21
to the various activities that are being impacted by
10:26
government restrictions and government action and so
10:29
um the the nature of social media is actually to amplify and intensify
10:37
the urgency with which we will respond in these situations and it acts as this
10:42
kind of conduit to facilitating the way in which
10:46
we express ourselves in in these moments my research certainly
10:50
shows that in the times of a crisis or
10:54
these significant events individuals do take to social media to share with
10:59
others their concerns or their critique or
11:02
their their um their responses and reactions to to
11:06
various uh activities of our governing authorities
11:10
if you take for example the mask at the moment it's a hot topic
11:14
people are trying to decide is the ma is wearing a mask
11:18
a moral right is it a legal obligation should the law
11:21
mandate the use of a mask this kind of debate is being critiqued
11:25
and discussed on a rolling basis on social media and and
11:30
it allows for that to be um facilitated amongst a wide range of
11:36
people and so what lessons do you think the
11:38
governments can take away from the way people have responded to the virus shut
11:42
down and the way information was shared on
11:44
social media about the restrictions so i think the link between crisis and
11:50
threat and government policy has been a real
11:55
topic in the literature over the previous years and and i think that the
11:58
research does indicate that we or individuals in society do
12:04
believe that we live in a dangerous place and that it's the role of our
12:08
governments and the law to protect its citizens and to keep them
12:12
safe it's really crucial that our policymakers and our
12:16
governments understand the way that individuals and
12:20
communities will respond to their actions to their
12:25
decision-making in that in that kind of crisis or event or
12:29
moment and i think one of the things that it would
12:32
be important for governing authorities to recognize is
12:35
that social media provides this unprecedented access
12:39
to our community's views on the way in which they're operating and the
12:44
the work that they're doing and how that impacts upon our daily lives
12:48
so the impact of law on an individual and a community
12:52
can be interpreted by looking at social media comments
12:56
it's it's the it's the place where you can go and see
13:00
publicly what people are thinking and feeling and responding in that way
13:04
it's like an immediate survey of public without having to actually do a survey
13:08
in a sense yeah and if there is if there is panic
13:11
and confusion and uncertainty and distrust that's
13:14
percolating in the public consciousness then it's a real opportunity for the
13:18
government and authorities to kind of calm fears and to take action quickly
13:24
absolutely well i just have one more question for you cassandra
13:28
the world as we know it has changed forever and it's likely we'll be
13:32
managing restrictions for some time yet how could authorities work with the
13:37
public to achieve more widespread compliance
13:40
and best case scenario outcomes i think particularly as the pandemic has
13:44
progressed people are becoming mentally saturated
13:48
overwhelmed and potentially confused about where do
13:51
we stand now with various restrictions i think clear and decisive and
13:57
calm communication was really important i think that crisis like these provide
14:03
the paradoxical potential to either unite or to divide
14:09
australians and i think that tapping into that
14:13
from the government perspective is really important the way
14:16
in which they access and use social media
14:19
will be key to facilitating one of those particular polarizing
14:24
responses the prime minister several years ago in
14:28
relation to security in 2017 said that
14:33
the public wants their lawmakers and their government to put the safety
14:39
of their people first and to know that they're doing
14:42
that and i think this is this is really important legitimacy is
14:46
crucial for engendering trust in the australian
14:50
public and so i think that it's a really
14:53
important aspect for our governments to take on
14:57
board to take note of where people are at with their decision
15:02
making and to respond and to tailor their
15:05
response for that and i think one thing i've noticed
15:10
lately is that people are becoming more numb
15:12
to instruction and to statistics and i noticed that with the advertising
15:18
from our governing authorities in recent days
15:22
that there's been a bit of a shift a shift in gears from
15:25
from say the mind to the heart so there was an advertisement that ran
15:29
where instead of actually touting instruction it was
15:33
a family a mum and a dad talking about their daughter who was working on the
15:37
front line during this pandemic and so it's
15:39
speaking through story to that idea that we need to take care
15:43
of one another and we do it not just for ourselves but for others
15:46
and so that's potentially a way to tap into
15:49
speaking to the community where they're at
15:53
social media is as it engages the whole being
15:56
the whole human person and so i think it's good for governments to do that too
16:02
fantastic well cassandra that's been so insightful thank you so much for
16:05
speaking with me today and we look forward to hearing more
16:08
about this fascinating area as social media continues to take shape into the
16:16
future

 

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