Speaker 1 [00:00:04] We know that country for Aboriginal peoples is an interconnected set of ancient and sophisticated relationships. The University of Wollongong spreads across many interrelated Aboriginal Countries that are bound by this sacred landscape, and intimate relationship with that landscape since creation. From Sydney to the Southern Highlands to the south coast. Freshwater to bitter water to salt. From City to urban to rural.
Speaker 2 [00:01:12] The University of Wollongong acknowledges the custodianship of the Aboriginal peoples of this place and space that has kept alive the relationships between all living things.
Speaker 1 [00:01:24] The university
Speaker 3 [00:01:25] Aacknowledges the devastating impact of colonisation.
Speaker 1 [00:01:28] on our campus footprint and commit ourselves to truth-telling,
Speaker 1 [00:01:34] healing and education.
Speaker 3 [00:01:53] Welcome to you all. I would like to welcome UOW alumni, staff, students, community. And we've got people zooming in here from all around New South Wales, Victoria and Queensland. So thank you, firstly, thank you for making time to come to our Zoom session today and listen to our journey thus far at UOW. I'd like to start by acknowledging country, following that beautiful video that we've just released here at UOW. So I am on Yuin and Dharawal Country. And I'd like to acknowledge that I am a woman of country first and foremost. And I feel honoured and blessed to be living on this country. And never have I ever lived anywhere where I'm guided by country every day in my everyday life. So I feel really lucky and blessed to be living here in the Wollongong area. I'd like to acknowledge our elders of the past, present and emerging. I'm sure we have people in our audience today who are on the rise up and leading in their places and spaces. So I'd like to acknowledge that contribution as well. I'd also like to acknowledge that we are the most written about people in this world and not by ourselves, but by the voices of others. So I'm very excited to be surrounded by other Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people here today that we're going to be talking about and sharing our experiences of reconciliation with you. I'd also like you to copy in the chat, if you want to shout out on whichever country you're zooming in from, which country or nation you're zooming in from. And I'd also like to just throw this out to Layne, one of our panel members, to see if you might want to add anything to an acknowledgement. We want to discuss the importance of personalising your acknowledgement and making it feel like your own.
Speaker 4 [00:03:49] Thanks, Tammy. Yeah. Evening, everyone. I just began dinner at my house so you could possibly hear, you might hear a 12 year old kid. But who will say what we can do? So, yeah, I'd also like to acknowledge country and thank you, Tammy, for giving me the opportunity to acknowledge your country as well. I'd like to acknowledge that we stand on land that has never been ceded, that has a deeper meaning and a deeper layer of knowledge that unfortunately for many, well, many people I know, don't get the privilege and access to any more. And I'm what I'm talking about is the privilege of knowing your culture and your language and the knowledge of the language of the land and particularly on the south east corner. I always say now that I speak from a south east New South Wales perspective. I'm very mindful that the country that I live and grow up on is very unique and very different to other people's countries. So, I'd like to acknowledge the elders past and the elders of the present and the struggles and that, you know, the overlay of what we're, what we're currently sitting on is, is always, always was and always has been Aboriginal land.
We need to acknowledge that these buildings and these beautiful phone and these cars is just an overlay. It sits on top of what's already here, it's already sits on top of what's already been here and has always been. As part of this acknowledgement, I'd like to encourage you to learn more about the language and the people and the mob and build relationships to where you are so you can have your own personal acknowledgement to the country every day. And some people already have that. They watch the sunrise every day, that's connecting the country on your beautiful, beautiful area in which you live, because we're all part of this land now together. That needs to be a big part that we're going to talk about reconciliation tonight. And these white fellas aren't going anywhere, and neither are these black fellas. So, I acknowledge you all, as well and it's nice to see some familiar faces here.
Speaker 3 [00:06:01] Thank you so much. That was just beautiful. And I think I just imagine what our ancestors would have thought 235 years ago. Would they think that we would be sitting here, leading a platform and having as many participants as we do now? And I just to imagine how proud they would be of us having voices and, you know, being one of the oldest living cultures in the world and still living, living that culture every day. So thank you for that, Layne. I'd just like to introduce our panel members for you today as well this evening. So I've got Professor Bronwyn Carlson. Professor Bronwyn Carson is an Aboriginal woman who was born on and lives on Dharawal country in New South Wales. She's the head of the Department of Indigenous Studies at Macquarie University. An Alumna of UOW, Professor Carlson also taught at UOW for five, five and a half years. Her research interests include Indigenous engagement on digital platforms, Indigenous Identities and Indigenous Futurisms. Welcome. Thank you so much for being here, Professor Carlson.
Speaker 2 [00:07:04] Thanks, Tammy. It's lovely to be here this evening.
Speaker 3 [00:07:06] Thank you. We also have Ash Johnstone. Ash Johnstone is a First Nations Dunghutti woman currently living on sovereign Dharawal country. She's an academic teaching and researching in the Indigenous space and an advocate for Indigenous survivors of domestic family and sexual violence. Ash has worked on diverse projects involving advocacy, environmental sustainability, education, media, racism, language performance, social media, domestic violence, and COVID-19. She's currently completing a PhD with the University of Wollongong. Welcome Ash.
Thanks, Tammy.
We have the lovely last, Professor David Currow. Professor David Currow is the Deputy Vice-Chancellor (Health and Sustainable Futures) here at UOW. He's a former Chief Cancer Officer New South Wales, and the Chief Executive Officer of the Cancer Institute, New South Wales, the State Cancer Control Agency. David is the co-chair of our Reconciliation Action Plan Steering Committee as well. And David, we cannot thank you enough as well for giving your time to us here this evening.
Speaker 5 [00:08:18] Great to be here. Thanks, Tammy.
Speaker 3 [00:08:20] We also have with us, you would have met briefly, is Layne Brown. So Layne Brown is a proud Yuin man currently working as Aboriginal Engagement Officer with Transport New South Wales. He is a UOW alumnus and Layne has previously worked at UOW as a researcher with the Australian Health Service Research Institute and as partner with UOW in his roles with AIME and the Illawarra Koori Mens Support Group. So thank you so much for being here with us, Layne.
And I'll tell you a bit about myself. My name is Tammy Small, a family name Gordon. I’m a Wiradjuri woman, as I mentioned. And I'm the Manager of Projects (Indigenous Advancement) here at UOW.
We've just launched our RAP. If you had the pleasure of being there with us, you would have seen that it was it was done our way and it was done very different. And we had the support of Layne and his dance group in order to make that happen for us. So thank you. Thank you, everyone.
And I just want to let you all the participants know and everyone who's Zooming in this evening, that we do have some interactive activities. You'll see some Slidos coming up and we will get you to interact with them as we move through. If you also if you have any questions, please feel free to put them in our Q&A. We will try and answer as many questions as we can, but we assure you that we will get to some of the questions at a later date if we are unable to answer them all today.
In the Slido, you'll be asked for a passcode as well and you'll see there's that information on the slide when we when we get to that point. So I think I think everyone's waiting, I think they're waiting for us to get started and ask these questions.
So, I'm going to ask my first question to all our panellists, and I'll say your name in accordance to who's on my screen. But this is for everyone, all panel members. And so my first question is what does reconciliation, what does reconciliation mean to you? And what are your hopes for this new Reconciliation Action Plan at UOW? So, I can see. Prof. Carlson If I can get you potentially,
Speaker 2 [00:10:33] Of course you can, Tammy.
Speaker 2 [00:10:35] I was Like, hmm, how do we answer this question? So, I feel like for a long time Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people have been a bit disappointed with this concept of reconciliation. I feel it's something that even people who have come before us have strived for and we've seen little outcomes that benefit us, this generation and of course the younger panel members, members here today and this next generation. So, for me, reconciliation would actually mean something that is done and it's not done by us. And I think it's got to be a commitment from institutions to make institutional change and that we don't often see. So, there are beautiful documents. This is one of them as well. And I see the effort that Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people make into these documents and into building reconciliation action plans. And they do that with hope for the future. They do that with a hope for something better for the next generation. And as somebody who started at Wollongong University back in oh goodness me, 1999, when it used to be the Aboriginal Education Centre there supporting Indigenous students. And I started with Aunty Rita. We were both kind of mature, well she really was a bit more mature than me, but we're both very mature age people. We went to university and it looked a lot different then to what it looks like now. But I can see that same struggle has just been generational. So for me, I'd like to see a lot of actions put beside, that there is somebody accountable to it, that it's measurable, and that community actually gets to hear how that that has been achieved. Because I'm yet to, in all my long years and feeling very old on this cold winter night here on beautiful Dharawal country, to see an institution make such a commitment and then respond to the community and how they've met it. So, for me, that's what reconciliation is. It's actions by institutions that are held accountable to Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people whose country in which they are built on and who make real change for the future. So that's kind of like what I think reconciliation ought to be, should be. And that is my hope that some doing things come from this reconciliation action plan, and I'd like to be able to see that and know that's occurring.
Speaker 3 [00:13:09] Thank you so much for the perfect answer. Of course, it's everybody's business, and let's hope that we do see some, some great change with our new RAP. Professor Currow, can I get you to answer this question as well? So what does it mean to you and what are our hopes for our new RAP?
Speaker 5 [00:13:26] Well, that's, that's pretty tough Tammy, after Bronwyn has answered it perfectly. What can you say? I think there's you know, at a macro level, we want to see institutional change. And as we all realise, whether that's about reconciliation or any other number of things that institutions should be doing far better than they are. It takes real time and commitment from everyone within the institution. And so, at a micro level, this is about relationships and it's about building really genuine, trusting, respectful relationships between people. Because when we do that, then we can start to, to really go down a path of genuine reconciliation that will see change and will see that change sustained and gain momentum. But it, it is about relationships, not just between institutions, but between people. And you and I can, can build that bridge. I think one of the things that I took from the launch of the Reconciliation Action Plan, which is incredibly obvious, but, you know, to which we don't give voice often enough, is this is not the responsibility of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people to do the heavy lifting. Everyone needs to, to take responsibility for that. And you know, we've got some great Aboriginal communities in the region around our campuses, not only in south east New South Wales, but that further afield. This is not their problem and we need to make sure that every person in this university and in the communities in which they live is committed to real change. And that's through developing relationships.
Speaker 3 [00:15:32] Thank you so much.
Speaker 1 [00:15:34] Ash.
Speaker 3 [00:15:35] What are your thoughts? I mean, what else is left to say after both of those answers? But I'll have to go. So first, just also acknowledging the sovereignty of the Dharawal people whose lands I'm on here in the beautiful Illawarra. I think, you know, exactly as has been said, reconciliation truly is just about non-Indigenous people and organisations listening to Indigenous people who are the experts on what we need and then following that up with authentic action. It's just about that genuine commitment to action to challenge those systems and frameworks because they do just continue to disproportionately affect Indigenous people in negative ways and just holding each other accountable as well to these promises. You know, it's really easy to say that you want to, to make things better. It's really easy to say that you, you know, you are a champion of equality or whatever it might be. But it's about actually that accountability to those actions. And, and as you know, Bronwyn was saying as well, like just looking back at those promises and goals and saying, you know, asking the community, have we actually achieved those things? So, I think my hope for the new RAP is that room is made and significant resources allocated to those actions that have been outlined. You know, I've read the RAP and there are some really important goals that have been set out in it. And I think, you know, if we can actually resource those and commit to doing them, we could actually see change happen in a really positive way. But it will take people across every level of the university to do so. You know, there's, there's just not enough Indigenous people to be able to make this happen. So, we need to see every single level, you know, entry level all the way up committed to these actions. I think that's probably my hope for it.
- And Layne, if you wanted to, to add anything. But I just think it's really important to reiterate what everyone's saying. It's about coming together for Country, for the importance of caring about Country.
- They’re still coming. We've got connection, joy, overdue, together. Nervous about getting it right. Look, there is a whole ‘when in doubt, leave it out’ situation. But I think sometimes that's why we might be in the positions that we are today. Especially in the in the classrooms. I think there's a lot of ‘when in doubt, leave it out’ and then we see the impact coming here when we have our students. Accountability. Action. Relief. Finally.
Speaker 4 [00:17:48] Yeah, there's a few questions there to unpack, but later on. I don't want to get into that because some of my feelings sit in there. But you know, Dave was at the Reconciliation Action Plan launch the other day and he would have been privy to my little talk. I spoke for about 10-15 minutes about what I, what I thought. And I'll summarise it here. I’m going to touch on what Bronwyn spoke about, is our people have been fighting for this for a long time now. I'm going to try not to get emotional here. You know, our Elders have passed away. Our young ones are fighting. And it feels, you know, they’re 20, 30 years old, it feels like they've been fighting for the rights of their grandparents and of their people. They carry the weight and the burden and we're all getting tired. And no offence to non-Indigenous people who are chipping in, that's great. You’re not the majority. At the moment, we go to these forums and it's led by Aboriginal people. It's run by Aboriginal people and it's really tiring. Everything that's got to do of Aboriginal people is led by Aboriginal people and we're really it was sick of the one-way dialogue and, and I say ‘we’ because there's a collective ‘we’, but this is my opinion. We need to work together. Otherwise what's the point? We can't even hunt traditionally or live traditionally. We have, we're forced to live in this other world, which in the Australian colony and government, and we have to play nice and we have to play by their rules. And it would be nice to get those worlds to meet a bit more so we can have true reconciliation. Yeah, or we get rid of the word altogether. Maybe, but Bronwyn can write a paper about it.
Speaker 3 [00:19:45] Well, thank you so much. What a great way to start off this panel discussion. So, next what we're going to do, is a Slido. We've got a one question for you on Slido.
And I just want to thank everybody who's sung out on which countries they are from.
So you'll see in the chat and we've got our screen shared at the moment. We have our Slido for you. And the question is, what words would you use to describe your feelings on reconciliation?
We just thought we'd gather some responses here today, and we understand the variances that we might receive as well. And I'd just like to thank the Alumni Team for all their help in putting this together with myself and the Indigenous Strategy Unit to make this possible for you tonight.
So just use a passcode and get in. And chuck in a word or a couple of words. For reconciliation, it could be ‘excited’. It could be.. anyone else from the panel, want to chuck out some words as well? It could be ‘contentious’. It could be ‘change’. Hope for what else? What else can we think of that people might, might think for the words they feel about reconciliation. What have we got? We've got excited, support, daunting. It is a daunting experience. So much work to be done. Much has been achieved since the birth of the formal process of reconciliation in 1991. But we still have such a long way to go. You know, there's so much work overdue. Optimistic, communication, transformative relationship, deep understanding, loving this! Overdue, unity, hard work, and exhausting for black people. Yes, definitely.
As Layne has mentioned before, we've been leading these conversations and our ancestors worked hard to their plight for social and political equality for us to even be in these spaces today.
Speaker 3 [00:22:20] Excellent. Knowledge seeking. Lovely. Well, thank you so much for contributing to that. And I will move into the next round of questions and Ash, I have a question for you.
The State of Reconciliation report in 2021 discusses the Uluru Statement from the Heart, and it discusses the institutions coming together and organisations and building businesses really using these within their areas. So, I have a question for you around, you know, a significant part of our reconciliation journey here at UOW, and for many, is truth telling. How does this relate to the Uluru Statement from the Heart and what could this mean for our university? It’s a hard one, Ash.
You know, I think this is something I could probably speak about for hours, but I'll try and keep it brief and just give me a signal if I need to wrap it up. But look, I think truth telling is, is one of those really key parts of reconciliation. And it's not just for Australia on that national level of reconciliation, but for anyone who wants to be a part of that process of achieving equality and justice. You know, I'm a lecturer here at the Uni as well, and one of the things that students always bring up throughout the semester is this kind of sadness and anger that they didn't know about, this history. That they've gone through 12 years of education, have come into a university course and, and now as young adults are starting to learn about this stuff.
So it's you know, it's something that people, people want this. They want to know what the history is. They want to know what has happened. And so, the Uluru Statement, it calls for Makarrata, which is the coming together after a struggle, and it asks for a commission to kind of supervise this process of either agreement making between governments and First Nations people, but also that truth telling about our history. It's, you can't have agreements made, you can't have justice and equality and all of those things without also having truth telling. And one of the things within the statement that that they speak to, it's almost like this this prophecy, they call to it that's filled with hope, that says we seek constitutional reforms to empower our people and take a rightful place in our own country, because this is our country and we need to be able to take our place in this country. It says, when we have power, when we have power over our destiny, our children will flourish. They will walk in two worlds and their culture will be a gift to the country. So, we have this history, we have this knowledge, and that is such a beautiful, powerful gift that we are here and ready to, to share with the rest of Australia. So, I think, you know, for me this process of truth telling is just so vital. If we are ever going to reach that point, if we are ever going to be able to come together and heal, and if we don't talk openly and honestly about the history of this country, but also the contemporary situation that we find ourselves in now, we just damn ourselves essentially to stay in this really uncomfortable place of inaction and inequality.
And so I think if you apply that that call to action of truth telling to a university setting, I think that it can mean asking everybody here at the uni in whatever position you're in to just hold space open for us so that we can speak for ourselves, to never speak for us, and instead just have that strength to take brave action which will make people uncomfortable.
But it's important, you know, you have to be able to take those, those really brave, strong actions to see real change. And I know that like these conversations about reconciliation and sovereignty, you know, they make a lot of people feel very overwhelmed about where do you even start? But I just want to always remind everyone and I say this to students all the time and to everyone here tonight, you know, every single person actually has that power to be a true ally. And it's not just about your own attitudes, but also in your advocacy and your support for Indigenous peoples. You know, look around yourselves. If your organisation doesn't engage with Indigenous people, you can just ask why not? If your project doesn't have Indigenous people informing it and guiding you, you have the responsibility to ask why not. If your service doesn't have Indigenous employees, not just in that entry level position, but also way up at the top and in the boardroom. It's actually your responsibility and your privilege to demand, you know, why not? And so, we have these words around collaboration, community led reconciliation, sovereignty. And these aren’t just token words to be brought at once a year during Reconciliation Week. They're actually those fundamental cornerstones for achieving equality and justice. You know, First Nations people are ready to tell our truth. We have been speaking this truth for a long time. Reconciliation and truth telling essentially asks the rest of Australia, “Are you ready to listen? And if you are, are you ready to act as well?” So, I think, you know, it's that power to act by knowing the truth and then acting upon it.
Thank you so much for that, Ash. I'm sure our participants can, can take a bit away from that as well, which leads us into the theme, doesn't it, for this year's National Reconciliation Week, which is Be Brave and Make Change. And we are hosting this the week before, so we're very much cognizant of that and cognizant of that here at UOW.
But you've mentioned something really beautiful, which I'm going to pass on, and I'm going to ask Professor Bronwyn Carson a question around something that you've, you've mentioned as well, Ash.
So, our inaugural RAP noted that although the university offers a range of Aboriginal based subjects and courses, students can complete their courses and degrees without encountering any content perspective. What could we do to address this?
Speaker 2 [00:28:50] It's a really good question, Tammy, and it does follow on a lot from what Ash has just explained. So, reconciliation action plans are about accountability, right? It's the university is accountable to Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people in the community in which they get the pleasure of having their buildings on and working on and benefit significantly from. And so that accountability actually has some elements to it that are required. So, we have to ask ourselves. An institution such as UOW, main priority is educating the future. Educating young people to go forth and be decent, and humans who want a different world to live in, one that's better. I mean, we should always be striving for something, like striving for something that is better. And so, institutions have the obligation to educate the future. How is it that you have a RAP yet somebody can be educated at your institution and walk away with no knowledge of anything to do with Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people. And so, this is also about investment, right? So just a little bit from when I was there and I know things may have changed and I'm really hopeful that they have. But when I was there, institution committed to funding from things like the Ramsay Centre, whilst Indigenous Studies as a discipline was in demise. How does that happen?
Speaker 2 [00:30:24] So Indigenous studies is a is a proper discipline that has a disciplinary focus, that's spends a great deal of time educating non-Indigenous people. So, where's the investment from institutions into Indigenous Studies. And that would require Indigenous scholars, who then produce scholarship that educates the masses. Where’s that investment? So, for me, that's how institutions do it. So, you can't possibly think that students could come to your institution no matter what discipline they choose to study and have no Indigenous content. So, there's been a lot of talk for a lot of time around embedding Indigenous perspectives into the curriculum and all this kind of stuff. And there's been no real investment in doing that beyond the level of cultural awareness training. So, it sticks at this level, right? So how is it actually privileging Indigenous knowledges and educating people on an alternate way to view the world or to challenge their own worldview in which they hold? So, it doesn't do that.
Cultural awareness training says be nice to the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people that you might encounter and don't be openly racist. And so Indigenous people are then charged with teaching them what an Acknowledgement to Country is, what a Welcome to Country is, and what are the colours of the flag. And they go forth and have no changed behaviour. So, there really needs to be a great deal of work around anti-racism training for people.
Because I can tell you right now, people who know the colour of the flag and how to do an acknowledgement of the country doesn't necessarily mean they don't hold racist views. And so, if they do not, as part of the education spectrum, learn anything about Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people, other than viewing us as some sort of problem, some sort of something that they can fix, then there is a real issue. And so, institutions really need to think about how are they ensuring that they have a good, solid number of Indigenous scholars along with the support staff, that they are focused on Indigenous students. And where's the commitment to local areas? Like I remember when I was there, I suggested that we have a local unit or a local subject that we teach that is embedded in Dhawaral and Wodi Wodi people’s knowledges and systems. So that would be a unit of study that would be developed by local people. Where is that commitment? That is something institutions could do.
And so, I'm not talking about cultural awareness training. I think for how many years now is cultural awareness training being around and made absolutely no difference to the lives of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people. I would be very surprised to hear if either Layne or Ash or yourselves had no experiences of racism or discrimination in the institution. I would be really surprised to hear that you floated through those institutions without ever having to think to yourself, “Holy shit, that was racist. Holy shit, why am I putting up with that? I reckon that you'd be greatly challenged to say this has all been roses for me. So these things need to happen and they need to change pretty quickly. We need to move beyond cultural awareness. We need to hold institutions accountable. There's no way you should be able to complete a degree with no Indigenous content. That is ludicrous in this country where Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people are the first peoples of this place who are the knowledge holders of this place, yet have no input into the curriculum that's taught to people. So, people walk out of there and it has real world implications, right? I had the student who once said to me, “Oh, I feel really embarrassed. I've been in charge of this employment office where I sort out who gets offered what jobs, and I've always determined who is Aboriginal based on whether they've come from some sort of community outside of urban settings. And after doing Indigenous studies I realised how racist that was.” So at every single level and that person was in business, every single discipline, people need to have a better understanding or at least some understanding of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people, cultures and the histories of this country. Because it's not being taught. You cannot rely on settlers to teach it. Indigenous scholars need to be employed, they need to be supported, they need to be able to conduct research and to provide scholarship. And nobody should get out of those doors without having done some Indigenous content. And that's not to say that people will leave and be suddenly anti-racist. I'm not that much of a utopian thinker, but it certainly is a start.
Speaker 3 [00:34:51] Well, thank you so much for that answer. And we do have some points and actions and deliverables in our new RAP that may help us overcome. And we're very hopeful, hopeful of that. But we'll be working very hard in order, as a collective, I assure you, in order to make that happen.
David, Professor David Currow, I've got a question for you. So, what are the big goals in our new RAP? Well, what are some of our big goals in our new RAP that inspire you in your leadership role here at UOW?
Speaker 5 [00:35:25] Thanks, Tammy. In following on from Bronwyn’s really important thoughts, I think the RAP is a great roadmap for us as an institution to actually change. And I know that challenge was put out there right at the beginning by Bronwyn and I couldn't agree more strongly. Institutions need to change, but they will only change if we can work with the people in them. They are not amorphous structures that are anything more than driven by the people and the values of those people within the organisation. I want to put out a very bold challenge this evening. I think one of our real challenges as we think about scholarship particularly, and I love Bronwyn highlighting the issue of scholarship there, is to ensure that we have a critical mass. And I wonder and this is the bold challenge whether that critical mass actually needs to be focused in a few places of higher education to really consolidate it, in order to then populate all of higher education. And I think there is a challenge in trying to grow this in every institution atm, at every step and at every level of academic, professional and student life.
To that end, I really would like to work with the community to make the University of Wollongong a genuine place that is the preferred provider to, to many people from around the country to create that critical mass that that can then really help institutions where this has not been taken up.
And I absolutely take Bronwyn's point, but I think the university is working to, to change. And I see some fellow institutions where that's probably happening a little more slowly and with a little less focus. So, how do we create that momentum and ensure that that momentum is actually generated in every place of higher education? And we think of that in terms of universities. I also put out the challenge that we need to think about technical and further education in exactly the same way that Bronwyn has outlined. How can people have any sort of post-school education without that, that opportunity?
Speaker 3 [00:38:23] Thank you. Thanks so much for those challenges as well. And you're right, we are working incredibly hard here at UOW and we have a lot of momentum. So it's about keeping that that continuing discussion and that traction that we're receiving at the moment. I'm now going to throw over to Layne. Layne, if UOW is successful on our reconciliation journey, what would this look like for our communities within our campus’s foorprints?
Speaker 4 [00:38:54] Yeah, I think. It looks like access. You know, these campuses are beautiful and in beautiful places and quite unique. You go to Nowra and you get, oh, you know, this is a small little university campus, but there's not much like that in Nowra. The campus itself, you know. Our community need access to the land. They need access to those rooms. They need access to the employment. They need a connection. At the moment, there's not a true connection. So, if there's a Reconciliation Action Plan that is authentic, it's got to demonstrate that. It’s got to walk the talk. It's got to talk the walk. And if it's not talking or not walking, it's got to be moving towards that. You know, I've got to come back to access every time. When we talk, when we say university, our mob, Aboriginal people shouldn’t go ‘Woah, that’s a weird, strange word and a funny place. And why would you go there?’ You know, access could be really easy. And, you know, if you want to run an event at the university and I've been going to the university since I started in 2005. I went there as a year 12 student to apply to go into it, into the alternative admissions programme. So, I've been walking the halls there since 2005 and every year new people come into that university. Aboriginal people. The majority of those Aboriginal people are not from this community. They're not from here. Our local people aren't accessing. I'm not talking about traditional owners. I'm talking about kids that finish school. They don't see the university as a place that they can go to. It needs to be a place that they can go to. And it starts off with one, stepping foot on this on this campus. On these campuses all along the coast. And it's as simple as this. I said, let's do a community day or a NAIDOC Day. We'll pick a significant event, we’ll shut down the campus, free parking for all the mob. There's no excuse. We'll get them free bus ticket. We'll get them a free train ticket. Whatever we need to do to get them in and access, and say ‘Hey, this is a place for you.’ Because the more people you get in the door. I was going to look up the stat before this meeting, but I thought maybe I'll just stick a little bit clear. But the stats of non-Indigenous people going to university is so disproportionate. So, the average punter that goes to university used to be about a third of people went to tertiary education after they finished school. Maybe just over, something like 30 to 40%, whether it was TAFE or university, something, they went to tertiary. Aboriginal people, I didn't look it up because I didn't want to see how sad it is. But that's, that's the stuff. There have got to be jobs. I walked around the campus the other day and I saw a young girl that I've known her family for years and she was a gardener. And it just made my heart smile. And that needs to be everywhere I go on campus. We need that access. That is our, that is our community's place. It's not the university, that was our mob space, that was our land, and that was taken. So by having access you're acknowledging that. By having Aboriginal people work there, play there, study there. It's got to be the way. Let them into the gym for free, for crying out loud. Has anyone looked at how much a gym membership is? We’ve had that gym for so long. There's so many ways we could access that place. Yeah.
Speaker 3 [00:42:37] Fantastic ideas. Love the enthusiasm, as always, Layne. Would anyone else like to, to add to that? I wasn't going to open it up, but I thought it's a really good question, you know, and if we are successful, what would it look like for our communities? But I'm happy if anyone else on our panel wants to add.
Speaker 2 [00:42:56] No, I really like that response because it is about material benefit, right? So how are these institutions and I am talking about the people in them, David, most definitely. How is it that they're focused on material benefit for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people in this place in which they benefit from so greatly? I mean, I really resonate with that story. I, I was doing family research stuff when Glen Williams was there as a Student Support Officer and said, Oh, what did you come on campus to have a look through the old photos? And I was, I'd never been to a university in my life. Nobody in my family had been to university. I don't even think I ever said university as a word in my life. So going there made all the difference. Coming on campus and, and feeling like you're part of that community was, you know, a wonderful experience. And, you know, you get results when you invest in Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people, without a doubt. When I think about the alumni that I know from UOW, you've got a range of people, you know who are working in community, who are working in organisations, who are now professors or scholars. You know, that's all just lost knowledge to UOW when they leave. It is lost, you know. So, I think doing a little bit better about keeping people and growing your own is a really good strategy. I mean, you've got a young scholar like Ash, what's, you know, what's the plan? I don't know Ash, I'm just throwing her under the bus right here. What is the plan to ensure a future for this young scholar to complete their PhD, to go on and be an awesome researcher and provide brilliant scholarship to the community? Where's the investment in that? I'm, I'm pretty sure I'd be safe to say there probably isn't any. I look at the demise of Indigenous Studies in many places around the country, not just the UOW, and think, well, that's a great loss. I mean, I mean, they used to be I don't know if you even remember this, Layne, or even Ash. Universities used to offer block programmes to community for, you know, to develop skills. And that often led to doing degrees at the institution and it led to a relationship and connection with the institution. I remember Indigenous health that UOW used to offer those kind of block programmes to bring communities and right from right across western New South Wales and further afar. And a lot of those people went on to do medical degrees etc. So yeah, it's really is about investment, it's about a material benefit for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people and Reconciliation Action Plans, I’m like really cautiously optimistic that they might produce that. But I haven't seen any evidence yet to see that. I've seen various reconciliation plans get revamped and I think what's this one coming under the idea of courageous? Is that courageous for us to keep up, the people keep going? Was that courageous for settler folk to do something? I'm not sure what the courageous bit is about, but, you know, for me it is all about material benefit. It is seeing Indigenous people employed, it is seeing that their lives change, having the opportunity to be educated without feeling like they don't really meet the grade. I mean, that's why places like, you know, Woolyungah, the old Aboriginal Education Centre, all of those kind of ways that place has transformed is terribly important. I think each and every one of us had come through and being supported by such support centres, so they're really beneficial as well. But yeah, a material benefit, that's definitely the bottom line for it all.
Speaker 3 [00:46:22] Thank you. And I can assure you that we are working very hard on staff pipelines. And Jaymee Beveridge, who heads our Indigenous Strategy Unit, it’s at the forefront of her mind and there are set RAP deliverables that discuss direct appointments for our HDR students into academic contracts. So we're very much, very much, you know, looking at the pipeline. But I completely agree with that.
Speaker 2 [00:46:45] I’d like to see a few more professors actually, because it's the leadership that's lacking in that higher space. I know I've worked at institutions where there's a lack of Indigenous professors who actually can speak at that kind of level, particularly around developing strategies and making change and institutions. And as much as we'd love to think that they're listening to Aboriginal Torres Strait Islander people, they listen to people with titles. And so, I think it's really important for us mob to be sitting at those tables.
Speaker 3 [00:47:12] Could not agree with you more. Be sure, make sure you shout out and ask any questions that you might have. I can say a few coming through which are fantastic and we'll be sure to get to them at the end of the session if we can or like I said earlier, we'll definitely answer these questions for you following this session. We've got a couple more a few more questions to go. I'd like to throw this out to a couple of people, and this is an alumni question. So how can alumni support the reconciliation journey at UOW and beyond? Layne, can I get your thoughts as an alumni of UOW first?
Speaker 4 [00:47:52] Yeah. I think you need to first and foremost be mindful and present in terms of what reconciliation is and what I mean by that. I’m sorry, puppy’s having a fair go here. And what I mean by that is, what I mean by that is why, first of all, whenever you go to a space, an organisation as an alumni go, “Where's the mob? Who's the mob? Where are they at? Who’s my local elder? Who's my community groups? Are you involved? Do we work with them? Do we have an existing relationship?” And yeah, you might work at a distribution company, right? In sales and you night go, “Well, how does that, how does that relate to me in terms of reconciliation”. Or have you got really low skilled labour that Aboriginal people could be doing and easy access for it, that they don't need a degree? There's good employment opportunities there. And then maybe later on they might go on. But we're talking about, when we're talking about breaking down low SES issues in this country, that's what true reconciliation is about. I've got some really, really good men my age, Aboriginal men. And they got trades nice and early and that changed the trajectory of their lives, having meaningful employment. So you can look around and say, Oh, wait, hold up. We actually work with the community, but we don't know any of the Aboriginal community that we live with or are we just call up Uncle such and such. But outside of Uncle Such and Such coming in at NAIDOC time, when else do you talk to him? Does he drop in? Is it a place that he's comfortable? You know, all that sorts of things is that, yeah, that meaningful relationship. So that would be my starting point really for alumni is if you're actually interested in changing this country for the better, we're talking about changing all the time now, that people are talking about changing and they’ve got to make this vote on it on the weekend. But if you want true change, you can it comes in your own collective action and the people around you. And it's got to be on people to go, “Hold on a second, this isn't right, that's not right. You know, with the Aboriginal people, where's the mob? We need to get them involved.” We can't make you do that. Like I said at the start, Aboriginal people are tired. We can't come to you and go, “Oh, have you heard about the Dharawal people that live in the Wollongong area.” It's not on us anymore, it's on you guys. So yeah, I'll leave it at that.
Speaker 3 [00:50:38] Thanks, Layne. And Ash, you touched on this a little bit earlier with, you know, everybody has a part to play. Is there anything you wanted to add about how can alumni support this journey, support the reconciliation journey?
Yeah, I think, you know, just echoing what Layne was saying there, like if you have if you're in an organisation where you, you only interact with Indigenous people during that, you know, NAIDOC Week or Reconciliation Week and the rest of the year, there's no involvement, that's a really good indication that you're not actually doing much. That's like a really good indication that you're not actually an ally for reconciliation. You need to be having consultation with Indigenous people throughout the year and it does not matter what your organisation does, it does not matter what job you do. There is not a single industry or employer or organisation in this country that is immune to needing to understand things for Indigenous Australians because we also live here. So we access everything. We access transport, health, education, we buy bath bombs and we get our hair cut. Like there is not a single thing that we don't participate in in this country. So, no matter what it is that you do, you know, as an alumni, you have the ability to actually implement consultation with Indigenous people and make your space open and inviting. And I think also as alumni, you know, you have a really powerful voice as a network. If you see the university doing things that you think it should do differently. You can actually use that collective voice as alumni to send that feedback back to the university as well. There's a really strong tie between UOW alumni and the university. You know, events like this, events throughout the year. So as a collective as well, you actually hold quite a lot of power to feed back into the university and to advocate for those things that Indigenous communities are calling for as well.
Thank you so much. Professor Carlson, would you like to add anything about how alumni can support the journey? I just thought I'd chuck it out to our alumni.
Speaker 2 [00:52:41] I've always got something to say, Tammy. Look, I don't think institutions in Australia have really maintained networks of their alumni very well for a long time. Well, particularly not us mob anyway. So I think that that's something institutions can do better because like I said before, you have you bring people through the doors, they go through this, you know, spend years, you know, in these institutions connecting with people. And then you're out in the world and you work in professions. You're a generally well-educated person so you're working in the, you know, making a, decision-making professions, etc.. And so bringing all that knowledge back into and, you know, and treating alumni as this kind of bank of valued knowledge holders, I think is really wonderful. But to Layne’s point as well, a lot of institutions now have Elders in Residence, which are paid positions for Elders to advise on significant issues around strategies and stuff. And these things are really wonderful. And I think about some of the local mob here who, who would just value add so much. But yeah, having a network. So, what does it mean to be alumni of, of Wollongong. You know I was, it is about relationships for me because you know, Jaymee asked me and so I went to uni with Jaymee, and so that's how it operates. But what about people who are outside of our own personal kind of networks, who went through these institutions before me, after me, beyond me and all the rest of it? Where are those people?
And so yeah, really, I'm spending a lot of time and institutions have done this sort of in an ad hoc way and building up their alumni network, but they're really undervalued because people bring back to the institutions they care about. So why? This is a question that UOW needs to ask themselves: “Why would our alumni care about us? Why should they?” And so, when you can answer that to me, to Ash, to Layne, to the community, then that's when you've got your answer. So why would we care about this place? Obviously, you know, for lots of people it's on country. And whilst, you know, my family originates from South Australia, I was born here, I have connection to this place and care for it and people here. So yeah, why, why should we give our time and energy to an institution? What is it that the institution's doing to make us proud? Why do I want to wear a UOW shirt? Why would I do that? That's what they need to ask themselves. So, you know, what is it that they've done for the alumni to keep alumni connected, to build capacity in this place?
Speaker 3 [00:55:20] And what a mighty challenge, you've given our alumni team, and I'm sure they'll be typing some notes now, and they'll get back to me straight away following this and saying, Tammy, I assure you we are doing this. Can you please pass this on? So, we have a pretty solid Indigenous alumni here and you know, as you might know, we've got a dinner tomorrow night as well with our Indigenous alumni coming from another university, not from this one. I don't have any connections, as an alumnus of my old uni and I see some things happening in these space and I get really excited about it. But I think you're right. There's many questions still to be answered.
David, can I just ask you a question on how can philanthropic support assist in terms of, if we're talking about alumni support, in terms of a philanthropic avenue.
Speaker 5 [00:56:10] Money always welcome, Tammy. Look, there are lots of philanthropists who have a particular interest in really supporting people from Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander backgrounds. I think to take Bronwyn’s point, if we're going to grow the core of scholars, then we need investment to break cycles first and family to university is absolutely critical. And that doesn't just happen. I think the other aspect of that is, you know, the transition particularly to master's or doctoral studies and then to postdocs, anything that is going to provide greater certainty in those pathways is absolutely critical to the future. And, you know, part of our team's efforts in working with philanthropists is ensuring that they're thinking broadly about how they invest their money. I think the other aspect is that philanthropists themselves have changed in progressively over the last half century in Australia. They now want far more than ever before, I think relationship with the investment that they're making, it's not a grant. They, they actually want to see the benefits that are accruing because they've put their money on the table. I honestly believe that we can grow that area of giving in ways that can really help to accelerate rapidly the graduation of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander academics that really can take their place right across Australia and ensure that as people come to universities they are that they are going to predictably experience gaining knowledge that they otherwise would not have had.
Speaker 3 [00:58:29] Thank you so much. And yeah, valuable opportunities to be to be had for everyone there. I think we're going to go through with another slide. So, we've got another poll, another open poll. And here we want to hear from you, our participants here. How could the university support you on your reconciliation journey? Yeah. And what would you like to support with potentially in your workplace or. Yeah, just what would you, what would you like us to help you with whilst you're on your journey. Could be at work. It could be at home in your everyday lives. We got transparency. Okay. That's a great point. Yeah. So we've got a UOW staff member who would love to commit to anti-racism training. Thanks, Prof. Carlson. We'll have to get on to that one, won't we? We do have a school program that we have purchased for staff and will be rolling out to students throughout the next year or so. But I don't believe it has a whole great deal on anti-racism or anything really local at that. More education. Intentional action. Someone has mentioned would like to attend events, workshops and webinars about Indigenous histories and cultures.
Speaker 1 [00:59:56] Traditional workshops.
Speaker 3 [00:59:59] So just general, more training and more education in this space. I want to learn about the local history and culture. I mean, wouldn't that be fantastic if we had a book written about our campus and what was occurring here prior to all the buildings and around these traditional areas? Education and accountability. Sharing. Build Indigenous Studies. Cultural humility training. Agree. And we're very much working on this and we are adding local perspectives, strengthening existing relationships. What about, “Is there anything in terms of cultural cooking classes?” Yes. You know, things that we might be able to as well support with. And it could be things in terms of cultural safety resources. And I guess that kind of the cultural humility training as well. Ethics of passing on information in our workplaces. More open dialogue like tonight's event. Wow. Thank you so much. We've still got three participants, five participants typing. So, I'll wait a few seconds. Fund Indigenous Studies so that we can become a centre of Indigenous research and excellence. Email Ash to talk more. Ash. Love that. Yes. Reach out.
Really, really interested in that and be sure to reach out. Empathy. Pathways to connection. Visible Indigenous language around campus. Love this idea. I think it's fantastic. And I was only talking to Facilities Management Division about this last week, but we need to do it the right way and not just add things. And for the sake of adding. With money. Not just words. Completely agree. And I believe that was discussed quite a bit in in some of our questions that we've had. Well, they were they were fantastic. Thank you so much to everyone who contributed. And our alumni team will gather all that information and see what we may already have to support you in your reconciliation journey or some of the new things that we'll be developing through our RAP and how we might be able to share those resources with alumni as well. So, I have a question I'm going to check out. I'm going to have another question for you, Professor David Currow.
Speaker 1 [01:02:08]
Speaker 3 [01:02:09] Just on that poll, for example. We had the poll. Is there anything else that you can think of how that UOW is able to do to support alumni on their journey?
Speaker 5 [01:02:22] So if we look at the poll, I think there's both education and experiences that that people have highlighted really incredibly and the things that can help them to better understand Indigenous culture. The focus on local is critical in that we need to amplify rapidly the opportunity for experiences. Excuse the dog! Experiences across a range of opportunities for staff, for students. And, and excuse me for one second. Thank you. Across staff and students throughout their time at the university and their formal opportunities. But we've got to create more informal opportunities to where people really can gain experiences that they otherwise wouldn't have. That I think, you know, one of the great things of universities is to offer people opportunities that they otherwise would not have. And they can be encounters with cultural elders who are prepared to sit down and provide education to the most uneducated people who have not encountered this in their life before coming to university. And let's face it, despite lots of policies that are trying to drive universities in the opposite direction, education is not about the letters you have after your name. It is actually about the skills, insights and ethos that you take into the world and continue across your life to develop and refine.
Speaker 3 [01:04:15] Lovely. Thank you so much for that. And speaking of cultural cooking classes, one of our Indigenous students just dropped me off a cooking feed that they just got back from their class today and made. So, we're training them well already. They're already feeding me, which is good. So, thank you so much. I cannot thank you all enough for the time that you have given us this evening to discuss this further. There are a couple of questions, a few, actually, and I think we'll ask the couple and get to get to others at a later at a later stage. David, there's one thing he specifically for you. Would you like to answer that at this time?
Speaker 5 [01:04:54] Of course I would.
Speaker 3 [01:04:56] Lovely. So this person said, I'd specifically like to know Professor David, Professor Currow, his thoughts on this. If we can mandate student students to complete online courses such as Start Smart, surely at the very least similar could be done could be introduced to ensure all students are educated on Indigenous history matters beyond cultural competency.
Speaker 5 [01:05:21] Yeah. Look, Tammy, I think there are a number of areas where the university needs to think about graduate competencies, graduate knowledge, that transcend individual programmes. And that's obviously more difficult in in the vocationally directed programmes. But again, I think there has to be a commitment by the university to educate and that's not just about what people want to study, it's about what people should have by way of exposure. So, I think there's a real opportunity here and we have talked about graduate attributes in many of the discussions since I've been at the university. And I think revisiting that with the lens that we have tonight is a critical part of thinking about that future. You know, do we offer a, a relatively standard programme across part of first year, for example, for everyone who comes to this university no matter what they want to study? And if so, how will that help not only the university, but the community in which we live and the community which we serve to accelerate reconciliation?
Speaker 2 [01:06:45] Can I just add that that should come through Indigenous Studies as a discipline because we all know that student numbers creates the cash that's required to hire people. And so having all these little outside courses and things that people go off to or putting the obligation on the community does not build capacity for Indigenous staff in Indigenous Studies, and that's where the investment needs to go. So yes, people should be obliged to and should not be able to leave the university without coming through an Indigenous Studies department. That way you'd be able to build the Department of Indigenous Studies from the woeful amount of staff that it actually currently has into a proper department. It used to actually have some teeth to it. It used to have five or six staff members. And now you have, what, a couple? Three. But one of those, I might add, is on a contract. And so not full time permanent or invested into. And not turn these individuals into teaching, you know, hacks that you actually invest in their future as scholars. And so, the more money that comes in by students with bums on seats would actually produce that. And I'm very, very much in support of, you know, having the knowledge of local folk come in, particularly Elders and knowledge holders. But that is in paid positions. It's a Wollongong University is an institution who doesn't say to people in law, oh well we won't pay you some old people to come in and talk to you, but we'll get them because they know a lot. So, it's just this kind of stuff just perpetuates it. So, if you bring in Elders, it has to be in paid positions to, you know, to share their expertise. But that shouldn't be at the cost of the investment in Indigenous studies at all.
Speaker 3 [01:08:27] Thank you. Thank you so much for that. We've got time for one more question. So, we've got Adam Gowan and sorry, that quick question before we just had like sorry, I can't see the name now. It's on another screen, but I'll let you know who asked that question, David. So, this question I can answer, and it's regarding the inaugural RAP UOW announced in 2019. Can we get an update on how UOW went achieving the targets within the document and how the new aims in these 2022-2024 document was devised? Thank you so much for that question. When I started here at UOW at the middle of last year, I'll say I actually had a look at the RAP and we worked through whether things were achieved or not achieved. I worked closely with Jaymee Beveridge and my predecessor Jo Goulding on this, and we as a collective decided that we actually hadn't achieved as much as we'd like to. So, we held ourselves back and remained on an Innovate RAP. So it's our second Innovate RAP, and you'll notice if you have a copy of the 2019-2021 RAP, you'll see a lot of the deliverables and actions have been transitioned across because we made a commitment to that, those actions and deliverables at that time. We felt like we needed to ensure that we moved forward and actioned those. So, we did transfer them across to our new current 2022-2024 RAP. So I hope that has answered your question and please reach out if you have any other questions on consultation or look at Reconciliation Action Plan and how we devised and developed that. So, I want to thank all the guests and everyone for taking the time out here to meet with us this evening. And we will be sure to try and include another event before the end of the year, a couple more events and keep your eye on this space, because we do have a whole weeklong of activities coming up for Reconciliation Week, and there are definitely opportunities for alumni and students, staff and community to get in on.
Particularly there's a discussion, an extension of an allyship panel discussion led by Summer May Finlay. So, we're very lucky today to have some entertainment.
We've got a traditionally inspired by country performance, so I'll get all our panelists. Thank you so much to our panelists and I'll get you to turn off your cameras and I'll just stay on for a second while I introduce Jiah King and Keina Brewer. So. It's traditionally inspired by country. Here we go.
There's Jiah and Keina. Jiah is proud Waanyi and Pitta Pitta man who grew up on the South Coast. Jiah is a second-year student, currently studying a Bachelor of Commerce majoring in Management. He was taught to play the didgeridoo by his father, Mark, who runs Didgeridoo Academy, an organisation created to teach others how to play the didgeridoo and to help First Nations boys and men become more confident, connected and empowered. Mark is a very well renowned digeridoo performer who had the honour of playing for Nelson Mandela in 2000. Jiah has been performing since a very young age and loves what his performances bring to others.
So welcome and thanks. Thanks, Jiah. We've got Keina Brewer. Keina is a proud Wiradjuri women who grew up in Shellharbour. Keina is a second-year student, currently studying a Bachelor of Creative Arts majoring in Music. She is a singer song writer and attended Oak Flats High before coming to UOW. So thank you so much. I will leave you with this beautiful performance that's been traditionally inspired by country.
Speaker 1 [01:12:30] G’day everyone, Jiah here. So I'm going to start off by playing a bit of didge for you guys. Quickly, a bit of context. This didge, I may have made some of it, but me and my dad worked on this when I was very, very young about a toddler. And I've been playing it ever since. I've been playing since about a very, very young age on stage, since before that. And I love playing for you guys so I’ll play a bit for you now.
And now can I am going to sing a song for you guys. This is Tennessee Whisky. This is first time we've sang together. Working together on this. Yeah, it's been good fun.
Speaker 3 [01:15:22] Yeah, this is Tennessee Whisky and it's a duet, so I hope you enjoy it.
Speaker 3 [01:19:16] Thank you so much. That was absolutely fantastic. And I for I don't believe you only know for a second that you've only just met and this is the first time. That was just solid. So thank you. And thanks again to everyone and the wonderful panel that we had here. And I can see some of the comments coming through. And we appreciate you. We appreciate your feedback. And please reach out to us if you have any questions or if you'd like to discuss our reconciliation journey here at UOW any further. Thank you. Good night.